Tag: Asriel

passivechara:

the-fungeon-of-lady-lazarus:

oroxim:

If alphys injected determination into more than just that one flower would there be multiple Asriels

Wait, but didn’t she try multiple flowers?

Does @passivechara know?
They know a lot of stuff.

Flowey was made from the first golden flower that grew in the Underground and was infused with Asriel’s dust.

All the other golden flowers descended from that one but I guess monster essence magic does not carry over genetically.

Yeah, she tried lots of flowers, but only the first one changed noticeably.

Personally I think a flower from the surface would have to be pretty dang DETERMINED to bloom in the Underground, especially outside of Asgore’s garden, so I can’t help wondering if it was just a change Alphys wouldn’t have noticed since she isn’t a plant person…

What was Chara’s plan?

passivechara:

These lines seemed out of place to me ever since I first saw them.  They feel like such a non-sequitur compared to what Flowey and Chara’s motives had been up to that point (as I understood them at the time).

Before I really analyzed these characters, I assumed that Flowey and Chara were both relentless killers (based on how Flowey acts when he isn’t Asriel in the pacifist/neutral routes and what we see of Chara on the route leading up to this moment). Why on earth would either of these people want to free the monsters at this point? Wouldn’t they just try to wipe out humanity instead? Undyne and Mettaton say as much themselves when their powered-up forms are fought.

For a while I forgot about this scene, but after reading through a whole bunch of UT analysis posts (and making a few of my own) I now realize its significance: Chara only wanted Asriel to kill six humans and come back home.

Keep in mind what Flowey has already been through by the time he says this: he already knew Chara hated humanity. He’s already tried to help Chara carry out their plan. He already went to the human village. He already heard Chara’s voice tell him to use his full power on the humans. He’s already lost his soul and become jaded by resetting hundreds of times. He’s had years to think things over. He’s already aware of the fact that the Chara standing in front of him has become every bit the power-hungry killer that he has.  And yet he still says that their plan from the beginning was to free monsters.

I hear a lot of “Chara was always evil” theories that’ll say something to the effect that Chara was lying to Asriel about collecting six souls to free the monsters and that they really just wanted to kill as many humans as possible, but if that were true then I can’t see how Flowey wouldn’t have figured this out by now. He was there. He may have been naive at the time, but he wasn’t stupid then and he certainly isn’t now.

This isn’t polite little Asriel we’re talking about–Flowey always speaks his mind without a filter and he revels in the atrocities that the player can commit. I can’t see any reason why Flowey would want to assume that Chara had the best of intentions back then when he clearly doesn’t care about any moral concerns now. The only explanation I can think of is that what Flowey is saying is true, or at least he has every reason to think it’s the truth, and he would know better than anyone except Chara themself.

Those who are critical of Chara could argue that Chara’s longterm plan was to free the monsters so that they would wage war with humanity again. I’d say this is technically possible, though the game does say that monsters no longer feared humans during Chara’s lifetime so this plan would only work if humans struck first (which could happen). However, I’d say this theory is mutually exclusive with the more-common theory that Chara knew in advance that they’d share control over Asriel’s body, and here’s why:

If Chara planned from the beginning to wield Asriel’s power and their goal was to wipe out humanity then I couldn’t see them wanting to share the “glory” with anyone else unless if they absolutely had to, especially if they were acting to satisfy their own hatred and violent impulses. A bunch of reluctant and no-longer-fearful monsters wouldn’t be of much use to a Chara who was that powerful and ruthless.

I’m not trying to sweep Chara’s sins under the rug, but rather I’m trying to put them into perspective. In life, Chara was not Flowey in human form. I’d say their offenses were more comparable to Asgore’s: on the one hand Chara’s plan to kill six humans didn’t succeed, but on the other hand they were less reluctant about it than Asgore was. One could also speculate about whether Chara only tried to kill adults and/or people who wronged them vs. Asgore killing predominantly children, but that’s a whole other topic.

Still, I don’t think hatred or revenge were the primary motivators for Chara in that situation, just a bonus, if that. Maybe Chara thought they were being pragmatic. It’s possible that Chara may have even had some reluctance to go through with the plan, but figured “If it’s seven human lives versus the future of monsterkind, then I choose monsters.” It’s still wrong, but it’s not Flowey-levels of wrong.

(submitted by vgfm)

Another really well thought out analysis, you really make some great points here.

Flowey would definitely be the one who could provide the uncensored truth of those past events since, in the narrative, they are the one who acts as our foil for ever action we take (they share the “it’s only a game” mindset with the player.) Every use and abuse of the Save File and Reset ability is commented on by Flowey who will question our motivations, and makes every decision we make have some form of consequence.

Flowey also seems to be more in tuned with the “truth” than when he is Asriel, not in the “it’s kill or be killed” sense, but in how the meta of his world works.

After all it is Flowey not Asriel who delivers the final speech, addressed to Chara/Named Human, requesting that they “let Frisk go” and to not Reset everything again. (Whereas Asriel talked to Frisk like Chara wasn’t still present in some abstract way, he believed them to be “long gone”)

oroxim:

Doodles

#undertale#this is important i think#having a good reason for having messed up– even feeling distanced from that mistake– doesn’t remove accountability.#being guilty of horrible things– even if you enjoyed them– doesn’t mean you aren’t still important as a person#you should always have forgiveness and a chance to start over but the one thing you cannot have is pretending you never did things wrong.#the only price you cannot escape paying is innocence.

(tags from spare-my-flower)

penstab:

Some panels from the first three chapters of my illustrated Undertale fic, Echo.

The first part (Seed) will be a study on Chara and their relationships with the Dreemurr family and their own humanity. The second part (Root) will be about an unfortunately murderous Frisk. The third… well, we’ll burn that bridge down when we meet it. I mean, cross. We’ll cross that burning bridge together.

(Despite the subject of MURDERY CHILDREN, edgy grimdark angst is absolutely not what I am going for here, just so we’re clear.)

These chapters are short, but the next update is more substantial- it’s already written, I just gotta finish the art!

passivechara:

“Chara wasn’t really the greatest person.”

I’ve seen that quote passed off as the smoking gun that Chara was evil all along but I think there’s a lot more to that statement than what’s on the surface, and I don’t think that’s just because Asriel may have been hedging his words to be polite.

I think Asriel was being very literal when he said “the greatest person,” meaning that Asriel literally thought Chara was the greatest person ever. When you hear Asgore’s talk of Chara being “the future of humans and monsters”, history books saying monsters no longer feared humans when they moved to New Home, and Flowey suggesting that Asgore would show the souls to Chara but not him, it’s clear that Chara was a pretty big deal in the Underground.  

Asriel trusted Chara implicitly, even in spite of his own conscience and common sense.  As we can plainly see, this attitude is not healthy. Obviously it wasn’t healthy for Asriel, and I think most of the people familiar with this blog will agree that it wasn’t healthy for Chara either. 

In the past I’ve heard rants and analyses about the “chosen one” trope in fiction and how it would be terrible to be in the shoes of someone like Harry Potter (even without the death and tragedy in his past) because everyone would have these lofty, unproven expectations of you.  This would be a bad enough fate for a regular kid, but imagine how it must have eaten away at somebody like Chara.

This is one reason why I find it hard to swallow theories that call Chara a psychopath or narcissist, because a person like that would thrive in a situation where people assume they’re great and automatically trust their judgment. I can’t imagine a person like that leaving, committing suicide, or deliberately surrendering control over half of their own soul (on the near-0-percent chance that Chara knew about the split control beforehand).

When Asriel says Chara wasn’t the greatest person, one of my main takeaways is that he’s rejecting these expectations that he’s clung to for so long. Heck, he still believed Chara could solve all of his problems even when he was Flowey, and it was that desperate attachment that led to his fascination with Frisk and his desire to kill them over and over just to keep them around.

Having said that, I don’t think Asriel’s statement was completely innocuous or devoid of any lingering resentment. Chara’s situation was tragic but they still dragged Asriel into their own crusade against humanity and it cost him his life. Asriel has every right to feel betrayed and disillusioned after having his most intimate trust exploited like that.

This interpretation isn’t mutually exclusive with the idea that Chara was a tragic and misunderstood character, mind you. After all, most UT fans understand Toriel’s resentment toward Asgore while also sympathizing with Asgore’s situation. If we’re going to compare the two pairs of Dreemurrs, I’d say there’s more evidence to suggest that Asriel and Chara reconciled than there is for Toriel and Asgore.

For one thing, Asriel keeps watch over Chara’s grave in the true pacifist ending. If Asriel’s quote was meant to be an epiphany that Chara was some kind of abusive monster then I doubt he’d want to be in a place that would remind him of them. If we interpret Flowey’s true reset dialogue to be addressed to Chara then it’s clear that Flowey is at least on speaking terms with Chara and feels he can reason with them (whereas if Asriel realized Chara’s “true” evil nature then you’d think he’d try to stop them or go get help).

As much as I like to imagine these two siblings getting along and being the best of friends, I doubt that their reunion after the True Pacifist ending would’ve been all hugs and kisses. Asriel’s probably quick to forgive but I’m sure he would’ve had a lot to get off his chest. It’s likely that Chara already heard what Asriel said to Frisk and I’m sure they’d encourage him to be honest with his feelings instead of trying to be meek or polite. I don’t picture their conversation being the happiest one, but it would be therapeutic for both of them and help them get closure.

(submitted by vgfm)
(*standing ovation for this post, holy cow*)

Honestly this is so well written I have nothing else to add besides mentioning how Monster Kid also goes through a similar thing of realizing that the “best person ever!!!” in their life has flaws and moves on to a new person who is “Way cooler.”

Neither of these “realizations” mean that Undyne and Chara are horrible people in the eyes of their biggest fans, but that the unmet expectations in their character damaged these two’s perception of them.